Wednesday, October 17, 2007

A parallel biblical message of Sodom, and consequences

Judges Chapter 19:
22 While they were celebrating, behold, the men of the city, certain worthless fellows, surrounded the house, pounding the door; and they spoke to the owner of the house, the old man, saying, "Bring out the man who came into your house that we may have relations with him."
23 Then the man, the owner of the house, went out to them and said to them, "No, my fellows, please do not act so wickedly; since this man has come into my house, do not commit this act of folly.
24 "Here is my virgin daughter and his concubine. Please let me bring them out that you may ravish them and do to them whatever you wish. But do not commit such an act of folly against this man."
25 But the men would not listen to him. So the man seized his concubine and brought her out to them; and they raped her and abused her all night until morning, then let her go at the approach of dawn.


She is brutally raped all night, and left for dead.

27 When her master arose in the morning and opened the doors of the house and went out to go on his way, then behold, his concubine was lying at the doorway of the house with her hands on the threshold.
28 He said to her, "Get up and let us go,"but there was no answer. Then he placed her on the donkey; and the man arose and went to his home.
29 When he entered his house, he took a knife and laid hold of his concubine and cut her in twelve pieces, limb by limb, and sent her throughout the territory of Israel.
30 All who saw it said, "Nothing like this has ever happened or been seen from the day when the sons of Israel came up from the land of Egypt to this day. Consider it, take counsel and speak up!"


I would ask the same today. Consider the utter depravity, wickedness, and sexual unholiness we accept today in complete silence. In fact, many celebrate it! This is a clear Biblical warning of where we will find ourselves when we live our lives like the final verse of this story:

Judges Chapter 21:
25 In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his
own eyes.

15 comments:

nanc said...

how sickeningly true.

Dan Trabue said...

Well, Mark, we are in agreement that rape is bad. And that would be true whether it's a so-called "conservative" or a so-called "liberal" calling for atrocities such as this.

But this passage is NOT talking about loving committed relationships, the sort experienced by my gay brothers and sisters.

So, may I have a difference of opinion from you on this so-called "sin?"

Gay marriage is not rape, and is clearly not what is talked about here in this passage or the Sodom and Gomorrah passage.

Do you think that anyone who disagrees with you on any sin is wrong and hell-bound and, if so, when did you get the promotion to God?

I'm responding to something that you wrote at Neil's place, where you talked about apostasy. My church is a bible-believing, God-loving holy community of faith and we strive to take God's Word very seriously. AND, we disagree with you on this so-called sin and think, in fact, that those who'd call gay marriage sinful and thereby keep some of the least of these out of God's kingdom are the ones who are sorely mistaken.

Nonetheless, we don't consider you apostate. Just wrong.

Peace.

Mark said...

Dan,
It is not I whom you disagree with. It is God.

Gen 19 (Sodom) has nothing to do with rape. It has everything to do with evil and wickedness that will be judged. Celebrating homosexual acts or any other wickedness as Holy, will indeed bring forth God's judgement.

Doing what is right in your own eye, as the Judges text teaches us, will bring forth God's judgement.

But this passage is NOT talking about loving committed relationships, the sort experienced by my gay brothers and sisters.

God could give a rat's bottom what you or any man defines 'a loving relationship' has. You Dan, are not the most High, God is.

Gay marriage is not rape,

Once again, marriage is defined by God, not man. Jesus Christ, our Lord in flesh directed us back to Gen 2:24 when rebuking the lazy and loose laws of Jewish divorce.

There is not one biblical verse that is even indifferent to homosexual acts, not one. You and I may agree, folks that have same sex attractions are no less the affection of God's eye, but that's about where we end. Christ is King, not I. Obedience and Lorship cannot be seperated. It's a life long process...sanctification perhaps?

There has never been any middle ground Dan, Christ is Lord of your life, or He is not. You are His or you are his enemy.

Dan Trabue said...

It is not I whom you disagree with. It is God.

And you speak for God? You know perfectly what each and every verse of the Bible means and what each and every sin is? And if you say it's NOT a sin, it's not. And if you say that it IS a sin, it is?

Is that really what you're saying.

His,

Dan, who has repented of his sins, asked Jesus into his life to be Lord of his life and who has been saved by God's glorious grace through faith in Jesus Christ our Lord, who came to earth, lived a flawless life preaching God's Good News and was killed, and three days later rose again.

[Where in that is the apostacy?]

Mark said...

Dan
Drop the 'apostacy' talk. I referenced the state of the church in my comments at Neils. For future reference: immorality, insubordination and irreverence make up the qualities of an apostate. Read the book of Jude. I do not personally know you, nor would I call you such based on a disagreement, yet.

And you speak for God?

No, God's word does the speaking for me.

You know perfectly what each and every verse of the Bible means and what each and every sin is?

"perfectly"? No, and quite irrelevant. I do know "...and such were some of you" (1 Cor. 6:11). Do you? See the difference Dan?


And if you say it's NOT a sin, it's not. And if you say that it IS a sin, it is?

No. Once again, I already know I am a sinner who desrves death. Unlike you it appears, I would submit myself to Christ's Lordship. I would not justify my rebellion to His word. How could I? I was bought by His blood, and I am his slave.

My questions to you, why do you only submit part of your life, if you do even that?

Why would you call that which is unholy, holy? Is your heart really enslaved to Christ? I submit to you, if it was, you would not help your so called 'gay brothers and sisters' away from Christ's lordship by celebrating an act of rebellion to his word.

If you have any, and I mean any scripture where God blesses 'rebellion' to his word, let me know.

Dan Trabue said...

"Unlike you it appears, I would submit myself to Christ's Lordship"

Well, as you said, you don't know jack about me. I do submit myself to Christ's Lordship, by God's Grace. And in so doing, I strive to love my enemies as I'm directed and stand opposed to unjust oppression and the killing of my enemies.

Do you? Or are you not submitting to Christ's Lordship?

Because the Bible clearly says we are to love our enemies, to overcome evil with good, to not return violence with violence, to "shed no innocent blood," so if you disagree WITH GOD'S Word, then you are rejecting Jesus' lordship!!

Do you get my point? Sometimes, within the body of Christ, we have disagreements about some individual sins. We don't agree. But we need not make one another out as apostates if we disagree, right?

And you were the one who brought up apostacy over at Neil's place, not me. I was just asking Neil this same question: Must we consider anyone who disagrees with us on any sin an apostate?

I submit my whole life to God, by God's Grace. It just happens that in studying God's Word, I don't find evidence to support opposition to gay marriage. Just as you probably don't find evidence to support opposition to wars like Iraq, or killing our enemies in general.

We just won't always agree on every sin, right? And you know why? Because we don't have perfect knowledge. We are fallen, flawed humans with a lack of omniscience. And so, you and I will read God's Word, pray for God's guidance and wisdom and, nonetheless, disagree on this sin or that sin.

I'm just asking that when that reality happens, must we consider one another blasphemers and rejectors of Christ?

For my part, I don't consider your church or you apostate. Just wrong.

Mark said...

Dan,
You are all over the board here.

I do submit myself to Christ's Lordship, by God's Grace.

Not if you celebrate sin and rebel against his word.

It just happens that in studying God's Word, I don't find evidence to support opposition to gay marriage.

That's because you are living in rebellion to God. I could quote the Bible, we could argue over very clear verse, and you still would reject his word. In fact, down deep Dan, you know that God's word is very clear.


I'm just asking that when that reality happens, must we consider one another blasphemers and rejectors of Christ?

I have no problem with that Dan. The truth of God's word is all one needs to rebuke false teachers and false doctrine. Celebrating sin is indeed anti christ. Like I said, I could quote the verses, we could argue over interpretations and you would still not agree with the absolute clarity of God's word. That Dan has nothing to do with me, my opinion, or my interpretations, it has eveything to do with your rebellious heart.

Dan Trabue said...

Not if you celebrate sin and rebel against his word.

But I do not celebrate sin. I stand opposed to sin and encourage us all to avoid it. That's my point that you're not really addressing.

I have read the Bible prayerfully. YOU have read the Bible prayerfully.
Billy Graham has read the Bible prayerfully.

And we all have not come to the same conclusion on every sin and doctrine.

Are you saying that I and my church are hell-bound because we don't align with you and your church on every sin and doctrine? That's a straightforward question - yes or no?

And how the heck do you know my heart is rebellious? You, sir, are not God. You, sir, are NOT omniscient. You, sir, do not know my heart. I rebuke that sort of arrogance in the name of Christ my lord.

You are approaching blasphemy for assuming you speak for God. Beware.

Mark said...

Dan,
Settle down cowboy.

ANY sexual relationship outside one man and one woman in marriage is sin. That is the truth, that is God's word.

And we all have not come to the same conclusion on every sin and doctrine.

If you are implying all who study and read the Bible will come to the truth of God, you are wrong. Equally it is true all who say they are Christian, are not.

Dan, we must remember that no one invented or even discovered the Christan faith. In fact it was delivered to us, the holy, complete, and final word of God found in scripture. Our duty is to defend that truth, just as the prophets and apostles did, even if it cost us our lives. That battle is in the mind. It is a very serious war. The struggle will determine our eternal fate, heaven or hell. This is not the time for docile happy go lucky 'can't we set aside our differences and just love one another' compromises. This is the time to proclaim the word of God with complete clarity and authority.

The very essence of all apostasy: "The fear of Me is not in you" (Jeremiah 2:19). Many will know the truth and reject it. Jesus was surrounded by many that saw His miracles and teachings of truth, and walked away from Him. The utter clarity of Christ's teachings pierced them like a sword because they loved the flesh and the darkness, and walked away.

Our only worthy weapon is the word of God. It is the absolute authority and holds perfect sufficiency in making mature discerning decisions on what is true and what is false, what is good and what is evil. Anyone who hears and then denies the truth is an apostate. No genuine believer can ever fall away (1 John 2:19 and John 10:28-29)!

They are false teachers among us. I hope your church is not one of them. They have no actual reverence for God. They turn the grace of God into 'lewdness' (Jude v. 4) They teach Christ on the Cross is a license for immoral conduct. They talk a great deal about grace and liberty, but they themselves a remain slaves of corruption. They are more interested in how they feel and what works, rather than what is true and what is right. Which is a common theme in many evangelical churches today. These false teachers are indeed among us and drawing many away from salvation. The grace of Christ becomes nothing more than a smoke screen and a way for them to justify their own lust driven conduct. They wilfully and knowingly use christian liberty to continue in lawlessness and entertain the opportunities for their flesh. See (Galatians 5:13 and 1 peter 2:16)

And how the heck do you know my heart is rebellious? You, sir, are not God. You, sir, are NOT omniscient. You, sir, do not know my heart. I rebuke that sort of arrogance in the name of Christ my lord.

I do not know your heart. Your words, your acts, are all I have. The truth is God's word, your words and perhaps teachings are in rebellion to that. I need not be God to discern such.

Tim Curtis said...

Mark,

I have read your responses to Aric's blog, and some of your posts, and for the most part I agree with you.

I am glad to see another fighting for the Word of God, and using God's Word without deleting the uncomfortable parts.

I find that the liberal mind says, "I am prayerfully following the word of God," but what they mean is, "I have remove all of the offensive words from the bible and the rest suits me fine. I'm not sinful because I live a good life and follow the correct parts of the bible."

The conservative mind on the other hand say, "I am prayerfully following the Word of God," and what they mean is, "Lord, thank you for accepting me as I am, a whicked sinner without hope. Show me what I can do to be right with you. Thank you for the sacrifice of your son, help me to do the right thing now as I try to follow your will in faith."

The "progressive" errs by ignoring Scripture, thinking that they can come up with a better idea than God.

The believer "errs" at times by trying to follow God's Word to closely.

How much better it is to know that you are a sinner, and to humbly try to be as close to God as possible, to take His Word seriously, and to yearn for the peace that only He can give.

We live in a time of heresy and apostacy, I see it even in my church

Fight the good fight, standing firm in the Word of God and he will see you through.

Tim

Dan Trabue said...

Not printing my comments? Not answering my questions?

Par for the course.

I'll throw this up as a final reminder of how, despite your pride, conservatives are failing in basic ways to follow abundantly clear scriptures and focusing on debatable tidbits. Tim said:

I find that the liberal mind says, "I am prayerfully following the word of God," but what they mean is, "I have remove all of the offensive words from the bible and the rest suits me fine.

And in so doing bears false witness. You have done so, too, with your assertions that you know my mind better than I do and that I am in rebellion to God.

You don't know that and therefore you, too, have borne false witness.

This is a basic Ten Commandments sin that you're overlooking for the simple reason that I happen to disagree with your take on the Bible.

Once again, I rebuke that hubris, that arrogance and ask you to prayerfully reconsider your actions and ask for God's guidance on basic human decency.

And now, I wipe my feet of the dust of this place (barring some more reasonable response).

Lord have mercy, brother.

Mark said...

Not printing my comments? Not answering my questions?

All your comments have been posted Dan. speaking of bearing false witness! That's a common ploy when one really has nothing left to say.

And now, I wipe my feet of the dust of this place

I don't give a rat's bottom what garbage you bring out of your closet, nor where you wipe your feet, but when it crosses my property line, that's where I will stop you.

The clarity of scripture will continue to elude you Dan, until you stop living in rebellion to it. Basic Ten Commandment Dan, loving God with all your heart, mind, and body. You have refused to do that; you have not yet made him Lord. You serve another master, one that ignores, distorts, and corrupts clear scripture regarding sin and the true holiness of God. I need not be God to see that.

You appear not to have the intestinal foritude to Biblically defend your 'take' on this particular sin. I do not share the weakness. I hope one day that changes for you, I really do.

Mark said...

Tim,
a belated thank you. Please feel free to add your thoughts any time. I noticed the words 'for the most part' :)

Let us both stay on the wall, eh?

Jeanne said...

Urgent response needed as I'm having a little trouble with this parable? Since it was the 'owner' of the house that 'sent his' concubine out and 'knew' what was going to happen to her, (the 'images' don't bring good thoughts to a person, who has been through abuse in their lives sorry to say.), why was he mad at her for putting her out there and 'letting it happen to her, and then to make matters worse cut up her body afterwards? Sad and distressing at the same time.

Mark said...

jeane,

Why? In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his
own eyes.